Talk religious to me...

[colliemommie]

So, flist, what is your religious state? What do you self-identify as? Are you part of an organized religion? If so, what sect? Do you consider yourself devout? How often do you attend serivces? Hw often do you pray/meditate/otherwise practice at home? If you are not part of an organized religion, do you consider yourself a religious/spiritual person? Why is my return button not working? Any religousy thoughts you want to share? How do you feel about original sin / mysticism / intercession of saints / the resurrection of the body / life everlasting? Manifestoes welcome! *Disclaimer: I will not try to argue anyone out of any beliefs, convert anyone to anything, be disrespectful or make fun. I will probably ask questions, but I majored in Religious Studies in school and I'm fascinated by all traditions, so it's coming from a place of genuine interest. Anyone who can explain vicarious salvation to me in a way that makes sense gets all the internet cookies in the world!

Comments

[coendou.livejournal.com]

I consider myself to be a monotheist but not Christian. My husband is Lutheran, and we go to services most Sundays and he wants to raise our kids Lutheran at least through confirmation. He likes Missouri Synod, but once we settle down somewhere and actually join (well, he joins) a congregation for real, I want it to be ELCA or some other denomination that allows women pastors and isn't crawling with creationists. The creationism thing confuses him, too - he swears that it wasn't like that in the church he grew up in and that as far as he knowa, no serious Lutheran theologist would take Genesis literally, but for some reason we keep running into Missouri Synod pastors who are creationists, and the church we go to now had a youth retreat at the Creation Museum. When we lived in Ann Arbor, one church we tried a couple of times but never went back after the sermon hit on anti-evolution crap not once but both times. IDK, I really thought that stuff was all evangelicals, but I guess not.

Anyhow, that was a bit of a digression. I guess that counts as "religiousy thoughts I wanted to share."

[colliemommie.livejournal.com]

So if you are a non-Christian monotheist do you lean more towards the Judaic or Islamic models? Or are you a non-Abrahamic monotheist?

[coendou.livejournal.com]

I just believe there's a god. *shrug*

[colliemommie.livejournal.com]

All Protestant sects have this vein of literalism that can pop up in the oddest places sometimes. For religious groups that had so much of their formation during the Enlightenment, it's often surprising to me the things that individual groups will insist on taking literally. Mostly it's the inconsistency between sometimes insisting that things are literal and other times insisting just as vehemently that it's metaphorical. I mean Lutherans don't take it literally when Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood" (They all are consubstantiationists, not transubstantiationists) but some of them will go to bat for creationism?

[coendou.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I really don't get it. It's not like Jesus (who is supposedly God himself) didn't talk in parables all the time. That's kind of his thing. But when it comes to the old testament, oh no, it's word-for-word exactly what actually happened. (And let's not get into the fact that even if the Bible is divinely inspired, it was written down by, translated by, and its books chosen by fallible men who could have introduced all kinds of their own errors and biases in the space between God's mouth and their pen. I can't possibly take it as anything more than a general approximation of God's word at best.)

[ginger]

I am ... vaguely ambiguous?

I was raised, baptized (as a toddler) and confirmed (at the age of 13) in the Methodist religion and required by my parents to attend church, Sunday school and youth group meetings every week as well as spending spring breaks from the time I was in junior high school on mission trips to a Methodist mission in the Appalachian mountains, up until I was about 17.

These days I kind of mush some bits together - I don't follow any formal religious traditions, but I hold to sort of a general golden-rule kind of belief that as long as I try to be a good person, that's the important part and the rest is trimmings. I do believe in a higher power, though I've not put too much effort into identifying it, and I generally address my concept of a higher power as Mama Athena when I'm talking to it for reasons that are sort of silly, but good enough for government work. (Despite the title, I don't hold any particular belief in or affinity for the ancient Greek pantheons, beyond an interest in their mythology from a storytelling persepctive.) I don't generally go to church unless I'm visiting my parents (at which point it's more for them than for me) or on Christmas eve -- I love Christmas eve midnight services, can't really explain why.

[erinmdmd.livejournal.com]

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I am fairly devout (especially compared to most LJers, I think!) and am becoming more religious. I attend Mass weekly, plus holy days. I pray daily in various forms (rosary, liturgy of the hours, etc) but soemtimes it falls to the wayside.

Original sin is why we baptize! Mysticism is pretty big in Catholicism and I am not sure how other religions treat it. I think its just something so normal to me that I don't notice it? I <3 the saints. I ask them to intercede on my behalf all the time- much more approachable than more general prayers. Life is everlasting, but I do not know what comes After. Its not something I think can be described by humans.

[colliemommie.livejournal.com]

Do you really think there is a strong Mystic tradition in the Roman Catholic Church? From my perspective, as an Eastern rite Catholic, the Roman rite seems very clergy-bound, along with placing a huge emphasis on there being one correct way to approach religion.

It just occurred to me that we might mean different things by "mysticism", though. The Roman Church certainly embraces miracles and hagiographic experiences by the saints that could be considered mystical in the sense of divine intervention in the mundane world. I tend to use the word more to describe the acceptance and even encouragement of individuals carving out their own personal way to relate to and further the relationship with God outside the parameters and rituals of the organized Church. To me, and a general sense, it seems that the further east one goes the more common that is.

[erinmdmd.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see what you mean. I did men the first, but I do think we also have a strong history of the second variation you mention. We definitely have a rigorous style of communal worship, but we are definitely encouraged (perhaps required?) to forge our own more personal style and relationship with God. For me, that is through the Blessed Mother and all the trappings that entails, but for others it might me Taize or Eucharistic Adoration or music ministry or any of the billion options in the giant tradition.

I honestly could not compare to Eastern rites! It seems like the Greek Orthodox converts I know tend to have home altars and lots of icons, but that is totally something common among certain Catholics as well.

[colliemommie.livejournal.com]

Original Sin is just a Catholic thing. Actually it's just a Roman Catholic thing. So is the Immaculate Conception, necessarily. Eastern Christianity in particular does not go for the idea of vicarious sin or vicarious salvation. What I find odd is that many Protestant groups which do not believe in Original Sin still go for vicarious salvation.

[sewawkward.livejournal.com]

I was raised by an Apostolic Lutheran father and a Mennonite mother. For many years I have considered myself Lutheran and I even had myself baptized and confirmed within a Lutheran (ELCA) church when I was 17 (this was after attending a non-denominational private Christian School). Despite all that I eventually became non-religious and now consider myself Atheist.
I really don't have an opinion on stories in the bible or church teachings. As long as I can remember I thought they seemed more like fairy tale than actual events. I remember telling my mom that it reminded me of the supernatural stuff I read old fairy tales (which got me punished by going to bible study with her weekly).

[notodette.livejournal.com]

Agnostic. Former Catholic. Lots of feels.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I was raised Southern Baptist (although we went to an American Baptist church for part of my youth due to a lack of an SBC church in the vicinity -- there's more differences than you'd expect -- when we moved to a city with a Southern Baptist church when I was a teenager I was rather shocked) in spite of my name, which is very, very Catholic (my parents were clueless and surprised about this when I told them about the reactions I've gotten to my name over the years). My father was a deacon and a Sunday school teacher, my mother a church clerk and a Sunday school teacher, and we went to church twice every Sunday, morning and evening, and sometimes to Wednesday night prayer service. I attended Vacation Bible School as a child, and taught in VBS as a teenager, and went to church camp and belonged to the youth group. Oh, and my first job was as a church secretary [g].

I married young, and as a young adult, I knew going through a divorce was going to send me straight to hell (I've talked about this with my mother since, and she claims not to know why I felt this way), but I had to go through one because if I didn't get out of that marriage... Telling my parents I was leaving my husband was no picnic. Well, anyway, the way I always explained what happened afterwards was with a flippant, "God and I had a fight and God lost." Not to my parents, however. That was more like the old "don't ask, don't tell" thing in the American military.

In my early thirties, I ran across the book Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler, which is a survey of Paganism in America in the 1970s(? -- I read it in the 90s and it seemed dated even then), and became something of a devout Pagan for a while. That sort of wore off after a few years, or at least the devout part did, and nowadays I think of myself as an animist more than anything else. I still observe the Pagan sabbats, although not anywhere near to the extent that I did twenty years ago, and I still have an altar in my bedroom that changes now and then. And I have a small statue of Kuan Yin in my bedroom which is similar to one in the Seattle Asian Art Museum which practically reached out and hugged me when I visited there a couple of years ago.

And that's about as clear as I can get [g]. Oh. I don't believe in original sin or why a god who claims to love us would have invented it. Mysticism, yes, depending on your definition. Don't believe in saints (although I do believe in multiple gods/spirits/etc. as aspects of a whole, so sort of the same thing if you squint hard enough) or the resurrection of the body or life everlasting, although I have my sneaking suspicions about reincarnation (an astrologer once told me, after running my chart, "wow, you've never been female before, have you?" and a whole parade of things I'd never understood about myself suddenly clicked into place).

More than you wanted to know?

[gindaisy.livejournal.com]

I find religion to be intellectually fascinating but I'm agnostic. I have no desire to participate in an organized religion and I'm not spiritual at all. It plays zero role in my life and I do not feel like I'm missing anything at all. I was raised Catholic.

[skittish-derby.livejournal.com]

I was raised southern Baptist/evangelical/YEC/homeschooled. I am now atheist, and like notodette, I have lots of feels.

[jadeejf.livejournal.com]

I'm Christian, go to a nondenominational church uh, maybe once every few weeks. I guess out here that makes me devout; back home, not so much.

Original sin? Yeah, I think all people have the capacity to be evil, and tend towards that, whether it's obvious or hidden. I also think all people have the capacity to shed God's light in their own lives, and hope that's more obvious than hidden.

Myticism? Cool! There are parts of it I like and parts of it I'm uncomfortable with. Mysticism in terms of not knowing - good. Mysticism in terms of speaking in tongues - not my thing.

Intercession of the saints? I don't know. I'm not Catholic, so this is not something that was covered much in my religious education. We were told we were all saints, and did not dwell much on those who passed. I like the idea of thinking that my grandpa is up there rooting for me to overcome and love God more, though.

Resurrection of the body? Totally down with that and looking forward to it. I'm going to be HOT... finally! :) Kidding. Sort of.

Life everlasting? Yay! Time to read all the books!! And hike all the mountains!! Hurray! :)

Current religious state: I like my belief system, but it ebbs and flows from day to day. I don't worry about that too much - I like to take the long view - a long obedience in the same direction, yeah?

Religion is fascinating - all are. I like Christianity best, obviously, but I love learning about other religions, too.

[acheuleanhandax.livejournal.com]

I am an atheist, and I am very devout. (-;

[pinkminx.livejournal.com]

Wholly apathetic when it comes to faith, identify as atheist ever since I decided it's a more accurate stance than agnostic... but I'm obsessed with religion and still trying to figure out how my enjoyment in gospel and church singing fits all that. ;-)

[northernwalker]

Jewish with pagan tendencies.

Not organized or devout.

I try and pray weekly at my little personal altar.

I don't believe in original sin. To me, sin is a choice.

Mysticism- I'm cool with it.

Intersession of saints- well, I'm into intersession of goddesses. So it could be possible.

Resurrection of the body- I'm an organ donor, so if they're gonna resurrect me, they may have to replace a few things!

Life Everlasting- as long as I get to hang out with my friends, cool.

I lived in a convent for 6 years, though I was neither Catholic nor Christian.

[sraun]

Raised Methodist, currently relaxed agnostic, possibly tending to atheist.

[carrieb.livejournal.com]

Dang. Apparently I wasn't logged in when I commented. I posted that I am atheist despite, or perhaps because, of receiving a thorough Christian education.

[dreamweaver523.livejournal.com]

I suppose I am more agnostic than atheist, but I don't really identify as either/or.

My mom is southern baptist, no clue what my bio-father is. My sister is baptist I think? My mom and step dad were not religious until after I left home (wait, what??) and she's pretty 'into' the church now. I have issues with some of their beliefs, but mostly I am a 'whatever, do what you want' kind of person.

I do like hearing about/learning about different religions. I took all the religious studies classes my local college offered :)

[sambeth.livejournal.com]

Am I too late?

I'm a lackadaisical Roman Catholic. I attend church maybe ten times per year - my own church maybe half a dozen times, and a few appearances at my sons' church.

I pray every day. In an organised way when my sons are around, and in a chaotic way when I'm on my own.

Original sin is... Um... God made man with full ability to choose either good or evil. He had to, in order for man to be an autonomous being, not a beast or a dolly, but a true companion in His creation. Man chose evil, in the bible story, which I suppose means that in order to have the capacity to do wrong we must have something wrong about us? Because it would be impossible for a perfectly good being, like God Himself, to be bad. (Although that's a paradox, because Omnipotent, so there we are, I don't know what I'm on about.)

Mysticism is cool with me, but I will have to be merely an observer of such practices - I'm not mystical myself. I'm glad mystics exist and share their insights with us, though.

Saints intercede for us because they love us and, err, God is often busy. No, that sounds ridiculous, you can tell I've never really thought about this before.

The body will be resurrected at the End of Days, I think? I'm not really looking forward to that, though.

Life everlasting is already happening in some weird eternal way which we can't perceive because of our own earth-bound judgement (Kantian category style). Somewhere in the divine realm it has all happened, and is happening, and will keep happening. I have no idea what that means in terms of events on earth which change outcomes, eg the birth and death of Christ, or my (apparent) decision to do one thing rather than another. All will be revealed after I die, or so I believe.

God so loved the world that he sent his only son to live and die here, so that we would be saved. His death = our eternal lives, because by living and dying as a man, he fully entered into and shared our humanity which enabled him to redeem us. Or rather, he showed us how a whole world, including its deity, and its creation, death and resurrection myths can all be reduced to one thing - love. Christ showed us that a flawed human love is both sufficient and necessary to redeem a broken world, but it has to be our love, our human love. His divine love is insufficient, clearly - He loved us all the time, but that wasn't enough to save us. By sharing our humanity, he forged a human loving relationship with each of us, which enables us to attain salvation by accepting Him and loving Him back. He had to die, because that's what it is to be human - all that is common to all humans can be reduced to, we are born, we love, and we die. Without any of those elements, we're not really human. That's why he had to be born too, rather than just appearing out of the sky.

[rockinlibrarian.livejournal.com]

Ooo, haven't read my flist in awhile or I would have responded long ago. I love civil and curious religious/spiritual discussions.

1. My religious state, at the moment, may be better described as "seeking" than anything else.
2-3-4. I was raised a not-particularly-strict Roman Catholic, and I still consider myself such, although BELIEF-wise I'm probably leaning a little more Unitarian Universalist. I've been incorporating more Eastern beliefs into my spiritual mindset lately, because it's been doing more to help my spiritual growth lately than the same-old same-old I was raised in.
5. I consider myself a Believer, but not so much devout, religion-wise. I'm more devout FEELING-wise than in a conscious practicing-of-a-religion way.
6. For the past couple years I've been really bad about getting to church, because my hubby works Sunday mornings and it's just a pain to get there and handle two hyper small children by yourself. I used to go regularly, and I plan to go regularly again some day when the children are older and/or don't need me home Sunday mornings. I also go to yoga twice a week, which really is an organized spiritual practice for me lately.
7. I don't have regular prayer rituals except for saying the blessing at dinner. I'm more likely to pray spontaneously, just because a prayer feels like happening. I often pray in my dreams, which I always like because they feel EXTRA REAL that way, since it's subconscious.
8. I think I am definitely more spiritual than religious. Hence my lack of remembering to follow rituals. But I feel sometimes ridiculously spiritual about EVERYTHING. I often think about that quote from Einstein that's something like: there are only two ways to live: as if nothing is a miracle, or as if everything is. I'm definitely in the "everything is a miracle" camp.
9. I have no idea why your return button isn't working. Did you spill anything on your keyboard recently?
10. I guess when I have a religiousy thought I want to share, I usually write my own blog post on it. My LJ has definitely been leaning more philosophical than usual the last year or so.

To be continued because apparently I talk too much for a comment...

part 2

[rockinlibrarian.livejournal.com]

11. -Original sin: I think the word "sin" confuses people, because there are really two definitions: the one everyone thinks of is "doing something wrong." But things like Original Sin and the Seven Deadlies (OMG! That's my new Christian Death Metal Band) refer more to STATES of sin rather than sinful actions-- as opposed to states of grace. A state of sin is more an attitude that separates you from God than any particular thing anyone did wrong. I think of Original Sin as being a similar thing as The Human Condition, whatever those mean. And I think Original Sin is particularly the attitude of "I don't need God." Because that's basically what the whole losing-the-Garden-of-Eden thing is about. Weird trivia thing I find fascinating: you know that weird verse about "because of this sin woman will now have pain in childbirth" and you're like "what's that all about" and misogynists are all like "YES BECAUSE WOMEN ARE THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"? Actually, in natural history, the reason human childbirth is painful is because: humans started walking upright, unlike other animals; and at the same time, humans developed the ability to reason AND THEIR HEADS GOT REALLY BIG. And isn't that what the whole original sin was, Adam and Eve saying "OH hey, we're smart now, we're not animals, we don't need to listen to God anymore"? I just find that really interesting.
- Mysticism: whenever anybody mentions mysticism I always think of this time I was visiting a college friend and we went to her (particularly liberal, if it makes a difference, Roman Catholic) church, and there was this little flier in the pew that said "Why Not Be a Mystic?" And I always just liked running that through my head: "Why NOT be a mystic? Give mysticism a try today!" I think I approve of mysticism, but as someone else said above, not so much like speaking-in-tongues or laying-on-hands-- not public displays of SPIRIT. More a gentle, natural Oneness with the Universe.
- Intercession of saints: I see relationships with saints not as WORSHIP of saints, not praying TO saints, but more like having a chat, asking advice of a role model who's gone before. I actually recently started asking for intercession through a woman who was actually an atheist in life, just because I could FEEL that the truth wasn't in her religious attitudes but in her spiritual ones and I KNEW talking to her would help me get closer to the Holy Spirit in this one particular area of my life (namely, writing). It JUST FELT RIGHT. Sometimes I sort of want to share what I've written to her, but then I don't, because it's too personal. It's a real prayer-- like I said, not one of worship, but more one of "Hi, I'm trying to reach the Font of Creation here, do you think you could help me?"
-the resurrection of the body/life everlasting: I don't know if I believe in the resurrection of the body, but I do believe in life everlasting. I always felt like I could never be a ghost, because as soon as my soul isn't chained down by this body anymore I just KNOW it's going to go flying out in all directions. I've actually always said I want to be reincarnated as the color cerulean. Just, wherever you see cerulean, THAT'S ME. I'm also more inclined toward the Becoming One With the Universe idea after death-- our souls are all part of God, and if we've maintained, rather than rejected, that connection, after our bodies are gone our soul is one with the Whole again.
12.Manifestoes I have written that I can link to: "On Being a Bad Catholic", an entry that is in fact TITLED "Manifesto", "Rules of Life That I (Used to) Know", and I'm tired of scrolling through my "Philosophizing" tag looking for posts that can pass as manifestos, so here's the whole tag instead.